Curse

Jeydra · Jun 08, 2010, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Lol ... to think I was going to start a topic about how much of a joke PvE now is! Like, some time ago while I was farming Nicholas's Gifts, I actually brought 7.5 damage characters into Sparkfly Swamp HM, with the only pure red-bar pushers being MBAS / Spirit Light / Kaolai on one of my heroes, and I had zero trouble.

Instead of complaining, you should / could get better at the game. If you weren't so obstinate, I could've helped you.

Owik Gall · Jun 08, 2010, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Went to do three WiK bounty quests H/H way. Didn't find anything TOO annoying throughout the whole time. Only time was when I got ambushed, but that's it. I went with the physical way hero team with henchies and caused crap to blow the heck up. Also I flagged and pulled. There was one spot near one of the bosses that looked particularly suspicious, of which I was right and avoided a cluster mess up. I think that for someone like me who is a vet and has good experience of this game should have a moderate time with these quests and other occurrences for the WiK event.

The only part that I do have a problem with is protecting the messenger H/H way. Neither heroes or henchmen would bother to heal him so I'm forced to go for the "tank in front of him and pray they don't target him." Of course that always failed, so it's frustrating that our ally AI are too ignorant to heal the poor guy. Maybe it's a cause for fix? Either way, that's my only distaste about the difficulty of this event. Everything else was completable enough for me.

NocturnalLunacy · Jun 08, 2010, 04:57 AM // 04:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mangione

AI is nowhere near overpowered.

NPCs tend to attack minions, ball in AoE, switch targets randomly, and do a lot of other stupid weird things.

You are doing HARD mode. Here some tips for the problems you describe:

- No group is made by 10+ enemies (except some mobs in Joko's Domain in NF). If you say that "on average" you are against 10+ NPCs at the same time, then you are overaggroing. Flag your heroes not too far from you, use a longbow to lure the enemies to you.
If you do it properly, you will never have problems.

Really? Are you serious? Okay, for one I don't know where or who you have been fighting, but the NPC's always go straight for the healer and me first. ALWAYS. There has been no deviation from that except when minions have their way blocked. Especially in HM. Now I am going to attach a screen shot of just how many enemies you can and will come across. This pic is from leaving Lornar's Pass into Deadnaughts Drough or whatever the name is. And instantaneously we were attacked. My screen hadn't even came into full view and I was already at half health. And I have a fairly quick computer. Quad core overclocked. Now I can say this is a rare incident, as most of the time when I enter this area there is a group of about 10 or so on the left of mainly Doliak Masters and about 10 on right of melee and rangers. But honestly tell me, how can 6 Doliak masters, 3 Doliak mesmers and minion masters and warriors and rangers be beaten? Especially that many. I counted 23 and this was after we had killed a few of em. And this is normal mode and not hard mode. I'd sure hate to confront that in HM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

LOL what?????
Is that you in that pic? If so let's have lunch.

It sure is funny and not helpful how everybody thinks that they are elite players in this game and so called "Vets". I've been playing for quite a while also and I don't have a huge ego. If I did I wouldn't have even posted this thread risking having everyone think I'm a noob or something.
And as I have said several times before, I have had no problems vanquishing or doing HM missions. One of my issues is how the enemy AI seem to know when exactly to do their stomps or knockdowns at the precise moment you are activating a skill or something. And it's instantaneous some of the time without the warm up or what ever they call it now. For instance, I was farming the azure remains in So Shiverpeaks, and those tundra Giants use that stomp. Well I usually count how many there are so I can wait for the stomps before activating skills since they almost always use the stomp once they get near you. So I would count the tundra and then count the stomps and unless I have forgotten to count to 10, there is always that extra stomp right when I'm activating one of my most damaging skills. 4 tundras 5 stomps? What do all you elites and vets have to say about that. And don't say the skill was recharged because you can see by the body gestures of the ai when they are doing their stomp move or knockdown.

End · Jun 08, 2010, 05:31 AM // 05:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by NocturnalLunacy

So I would count the tundra and then count the stomps and unless I have forgotten to count to 10, there is always that extra stomp right when I'm activating one of my most damaging skills. 4 tundras 5 stomps? What do all you elites and vets have to say about that.

You need to learn to count is what I have to say about that...

Jeydra · Jun 08, 2010, 05:39 AM // 05:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by NocturnalLunacy

Really? Are you serious? Okay, for one I don't know where or who you have been fighting, but the NPC's always go straight for the healer and me first. ALWAYS. There has been no deviation from that except when minions have their way blocked. Especially in HM. Now I am going to attach a screen shot of just how many enemies you can and will come across. This pic is from leaving Lornar's Pass into Deadnaughts Drough or whatever the name is. And instantaneously we were attacked. My screen hadn't even came into full view and I was already at half health. And I have a fairly quick computer. Quad core overclocked. Now I can say this is a rare incident, as most of the time when I enter this area there is a group of about 10 or so on the left of mainly Doliak Masters and about 10 on right of melee and rangers. But honestly tell me, how can 6 Doliak masters, 3 Doliak mesmers and minion masters and warriors and rangers be beaten? Especially that many. I counted 23 and this was after we had killed a few of em. And this is normal mode and not hard mode. I'd sure hate to confront that in HM.

Dude, you ran Conjure Flame on an Elementalist bar not using a martial weapon - and you call people out for thinking you're a noob??

I'll go kill that mob for you, just because I can. Do you want me to go out there with just me + 3 heroes, or do you prefer I use 6 characters (since I'm leaving from Lornar's anyway)?

NocturnalLunacy · Jun 08, 2010, 05:39 AM // 05:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by End

You need to learn to count is what I have to say about that...

And we have a winner. Yeah thanx. Now what did you say again? Oh nothing.
Fail

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Dude, you ran Conjure Flame on an Elementalist bar not using a martial weapon - and you call people out for thinking you're a noob??

I'll go kill that mob for you, just because I can. Do you want me to go out there with just me + 3 heroes, or do you prefer I use 6 characters (since I'm leaving from Lornar's anyway)?

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED!!! Tell me where to meet you and I'll just watch. And I'll take screen shots so we can show everyone. If you're not scared.

Umm yeah. It adds fire damage to fire damage. Do you not see what is going on? Its the same as using glyph of ele power only it lasts longer. I do NOT need to use a martial weapon and I think it's useless for an ele to use one. Oh let me guess, you're wanting to be like the charr that use conjure flame with their attacks. Instead of talking crap why don't you go try using it. On an fire ele without a martial weapon. My staff deals fire damage and thats all you need. It doesnt have the att +1 just +hp and faster casting and faster recharge. Just because everyone uses Conjure Flame for their flaming swords or spears or whatever, doesn't mean a fire ele cant use it for extra fire damage. PfpPFPFPFPPFPF

Jeydra · Jun 08, 2010, 05:51 AM // 05:51

You're on.

Conjure Flame adds damage IF YOU ARE USING A FIRE WEAPON, not to your FIRE SPELLS. Read the description carefully. Unless you spend more time wanding people than casting spells, Conjure Flame does nothing for you. And if you're logged on to the game right now, message me on my IGN: Jeydra Evenstar.

I should tell you that right now I'm halfway through Lornar's Pass to the area you're talking about, with just me + my 3 heroes, in HM.

Scary · Jun 08, 2010, 05:58 AM // 05:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Sojar

lol...

Everything you are complaining about can be fixed with good positioning, good teamwork, working builds, and aggroing correctly.

Learn to flag heroes and henchmen, and use the resources you have available.

true indeed, flagging before agro can make such a difference.
Also as look at the foe's you can encounter in areás before making builds
can be a great thing to..

The only thing I am always surprised to see. Is why ???? rly. Why ???
Are people always flaming on one and other just telling their experience.
Where one just could say.. Wel m8 I'll think you have some problems.
here are some sugestions.

For me the real nubs are those who think they are great in a game and there for flaming others who arn't just that great in a game...

this must feed the flamers.. so oki

NocturnalLunacy · Jun 08, 2010, 06:02 AM // 06:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You're on.

Conjure Flame adds damage IF YOU ARE USING A FIRE WEAPON, not to your FIRE SPELLS. Read the description carefully. Unless you spend more time wanding people than casting spells, Conjure Flame does nothing for you. And if you're logged on to the game right now, message me on my IGN: Jeydra Evenstar.

I should tell you that right now I'm halfway through Lornar's Pass to the area you're talking about, with just me + my 3 heroes, in HM.

So....I've been trying to message you but it keeps saying you're not online.

oh well.
Yes I read the inscription. And it adds extra damage to your attacks only if your weapon has fire damage. It doesn't say damage by your weapon, it says attacks and spells are attacks. Not melee attacks but attacks. I get where you're coming from and I've had this discussion with others. But when I do not use conjure flame the damage output of my fire spells isn't as high as when I am using it. And if you didn't notice, when a caster casts, that caster points the wand or staff at the enemy am I right? And what happens when the weapon is pointed at the enemy during the cast? That's right the spell comes from it so it can be considered an attack. Unless you have to wand or weapon at all then it would be ineffective now wouldn't it? Conjure doesn't add the extra damage to the spell being cast itself, it's added to the damage of the attack and that's where it can get confusing. Wiki it or send a request to anet for clarification. They'll respond and give you on. They have for me.

Jeydra · Jun 08, 2010, 06:06 AM // 06:06

I tell you what. You try casting a spell - say Liquid Flame - on someone without Conjure Flame on yourself. Then try it again with Conjure Flame on yourself. Do you get more damage when you have Conjure Flame?

I dare you to try it on the Master of Damage and then post screenshots here. No, Conjure Flame does not increase the damage from spells. Don't insult my intelligence by claiming it does. That's why you're bad at the game, but refuse to think so.

mage767 · Jun 08, 2010, 06:59 AM // 06:59

I did Riverside Assassination HM for the first time today. I took the mesmer and monk henchies, and used 3 of my heroes (2 rits, 1 MM). Took me 34 min (first time, with 2 wipes) without cons.

The mobs can get over-powered if you let them pile up. But it was still very doable with the henchies in HM. Only the mesmer boss before the final boss was troubling - rest was pull and kill. I did it for the challenge, no special drops. I got the same reward as NM.

Countess Marie · Jun 08, 2010, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuD

They dont run in packs of 10-15 lol, control your aggro...

Not to be an elitist, but this made me laugh. It's true, though. As far as I can tell... the enemy spawns don't get any bigger in HM. They are just faster in patrol and they are more sensitive to pulling.

HM is a total sham. It's basically normal mode with a couple differences. The AI on NM is stupid! Insanely stupid. Their AI is not much different, they just cast and attack faster. They will break aggro more easily, too. But that's why you snare and nuke them.

If you are using cons (as most people are) it's kind of like old school NM with harder hitting enemies. Even without cons and pve skills, you can still roll through HM. It's just ya gotta, as dude said, control your aggro. 2 or 3 groups can be deadly where as in NM it's kind of like... yawn.

But if you aggro a bunch of groups in HM, you can always keep pulling back until they group together and nuke them...

-CM

Picuso · Jun 08, 2010, 09:41 AM // 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by NocturnalLunacy

It doesn't say damage by your weapon, it says attacks and spells are attacks. Not melee attacks but attacks.

Melee/Ranged attack (or Bow/Spear skill) = Attack
Any Spell = Spell
Spell =/= Attack

If spells are attacks, Empathy would affect an Elementalist spamming Searing Flames (or casting any spell).

Try it yourself:
1- Equip only Liquid Flame and Conjure Flame
2- Go to Master of Damage
3- DO NOT CAST Conjure Flame
4- Cast Liquid Flame ONCE on MoD (after casting, press ESC so you don't wand him)
5- See the damage you did
6- Now cast Conjure Flame
7- Cast Liquid Flame ONCE on MoD (after casting, press ESC so you don't wand him)
8- After seeing that you do the same damage, wait for Conjure Flame to run out.
9- DO NOT CAST Conjure Flame and hit MoD with your wand ONCE
10- Cast Conjure Flame
11- Hit MoD with your wand ONCE
12- ???
13- Profit!

I think the main problem is not overpowered AI, but underpowered HI.

Mangione · Jun 08, 2010, 11:15 AM // 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by NocturnalLunacy

Really? Are you serious? Okay, for one I don't know where or who you have been fighting, but the NPC's always go straight for the healer and me first. ALWAYS. There has been no deviation from that except when minions have their way blocked. Especially in HM.

I am vanquishing all the areas one at a time, at a slow pace, since the time I have to play is not too much.
I am not having any of the problems you mentioned.
The NPCs AI is really dumb, they will go for the target with the lowest AL first. That means minions and spirits.
Is your armor equipped with runes and insignias?
Do your heroes have runes and insignias equipped? All the heroes I use for vanquishing have a +41hp rune, and the most appropriate insignias for their profession/role.
I wouldn't use that SF bar shown in your screenshot for vanquishing, it doesn't seem very effective to me. Try a water magic build: Deep Freeze/Ice Spikes = snare, then add Maelstrom = casters owned.
Also, what builds are you running on your heroes, could you show them please?

Quote:

Originally Posted by NocturnalLunacy

Dreadnought Drift stuff...

I vanquished it with H/H, without consumables.
And I don't consider myself a particularly skilled player.

Anyway, here are some tips, on what to do (a.k.a. "how I did it"):
1) Bring a hero mesmer with pblock, diversion, cry of frustration and general caster hate, or bring arcane echo and diversion on your bar.
2) Enter Dreadnought Drift from south, so you can have more room to maneuver, and eventually run back if things start to go bad. Pull a group of dwarves (they will split).
3) Once you have "diversioned" several skills of the dolyak masters, since the AI is too dumb to cope with having skills diversioned, the whole mob goes down easy.
Be sure to lure and split the mobs. Simply watch patrols move, don't rush, be patient... the groups will split, and if you are having an hard time, you can always try to spike the enemies one at a time.
4)Profit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NocturnalLunacy

Now I am going to attach a screen shot of just how many enemies you can and will come across. This pic is from leaving Lornar's Pass into Deadnaughts Drough or whatever the name is. And instantaneously we were attacked. My screen hadn't even came into full view and I was already at half health. And I have a fairly quick computer. Quad core overclocked. Now I can say this is a rare incident, as most of the time when I enter this area there is a group of about 10 or so on the left of mainly Doliak Masters and about 10 on right of melee and rangers. But honestly tell me, how can 6 Doliak masters, 3 Doliak mesmers and minion masters and warriors and rangers be beaten? Especially that many. I counted 23 and this was after we had killed a few of em. And this is normal mode and not hard mode. I'd sure hate to confront that in HM.

This is not a problem of AI, it is not that enemies are acting smarter. It is a problem of being outnumbered, crowd control.
Sorry, I don't believe you were aggroed while loading. Ever been with someone in your party with a slow PC? When they are still loading they are "greyed" on the party bar, and their heroes won't spawn before they have loaded.
Also: you spawn in a "safe spot", outside the patrols range. So probably you aggroed a group of enemies, were not too quick to dispatch them, and the following patrols added up. Don't attack the first patrol passing by. Wait for the right moment.

I've seen that exact situation happening when our guild was bringing an inexperienced friend to Droknar. It happened due to overaggro. One member of our party attacked the enemies, and aggroed the whole population of the area, so we wiped. Then we resapwned at the rez shrine and we wiped again, because the enemies camped the place. No one blamed the AI, we blamed the dude who happily brought the whole area upon us. We blamed the bad design of that single specific area. (It's not that the entire game is like that. Only that place is "defective".)

Quote:

Originally Posted by NocturnalLunacy

It sure is funny and not helpful how everybody thinks that they are elite players in this game and so called "Vets".

Wait, what?
I, as many others, told you different strategies and what to look for improvement people here is offering helpful advice (even though several people asked, and you still refuse to post your hero builds).
We suggested where you are doing wrong stuff. You seem to ignore all suggestions and go on rambling how hard can be PVE.
If you just want people to agree with you on the fact that AI is overpowered, you won't find many here. Because AI is NOT overpowered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NocturnalLunacy

For instance, I was farming the azure remains in So Shiverpeaks, and those tundra Giants use that stomp.

Anti-KD skills or... wait, are you complaining about NM now?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bMLrA_0O5I

Silmar Alech · Jun 08, 2010, 03:31 PM // 15:31

To give an additional answer to the original question:

I don't feel the enemy AI is overpowered. The Peacekeeper groups are strong, in some cases very strong, but nothing someone could not handle. Difficulty in hard mode is slightly higher than average, probably comparable to vanquishing Sunijang District or the 4-man areas in Ascalon.
Especially nasty is the group of Minea the Obscene in Watchtower Coast, who you have to eliminate to get access to Inquisitor Lovisa.

You should check your build. I saw you go with fire magic. Fire damage is armor-regarding, and since the armor class of enemies in hard mode is greatly increased and also their levels, you often actually do no more than a measly 30-35 damage with Searing Flames where your skill description tells you that you do 100 damage with 15 fire magic.
Consider bringing Weaken Armor, and while you change your secondary to necromancer, also bring Necrosis. With a Searing Flames + Necrosis build, you usually achive 45+ dps at the Master of Damage in the Isle of the Nameless. Fire magic doesn't really bite in hard mode, but Necrosis does, and the enemies are always burning so Necrosis has his precondition.

Or consider moving away from fire magic completely and do a supporting role with water magic (slowing enemies down) or earth magic (help party with wards).

Martin Alvito · Jun 08, 2010, 04:55 PM // 16:55

After a lot of cleaning, I declare this thread officially dead.

The AI is stupid. True for both your HH and the enemies. To compensate for human ingenuity, the enemies have high levels, enabling them to have high HP/armor and deal big damage. If you're getting trashed by the AI in HM, you're doing something wrong. The ways to exploit AI stupidity are numerous and trump the cheats developers give AIs.

AI has cheated in some way in many games since the first good strategy games in the late 80's. AI has improved, but it's still AI. It's no different in GW, except that sometimes your AI allies fail and trigger a wipe with their own bad play.